Internet Milgram Canoe and Kayak Safety Study

This study continues the famous Milgram experiments into obedience to a perceived standard, however in contradiction to basic moral and legal standards valuing human life.

This Google group is a deadly cult that is not shy (except for a few who apparently declined to be named below), about killing school children who are denied any means of rescue, as well as encouraging suicides and high risk behaviour over waterfalls and extremely dangerous rapids; any kind of deadly use of canoes and kayaks:

"Wow! What an illustrious list of participants!!

--riverman; began the poll
Watersprite
Wilko
John Kuthe
Galen Hekhuis
Rich
jaybird
Frank Galikanokus
Steve Cramer
chuck
Bill Bradshaw
Grip
Cricket
VK1NF
Sylvain Fauvel
Charlie Chok
Railtramp
qrk
Dymphna
Walt
Benson Gray
Tom McCloud
ab257
 

See! RBP is not dead, it was just hiding from Sponson Boy! :-)
 

John Kuthe...
 

John Kuthe    View profile
  More options Nov 4, 9:47 pm

Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: John Kuthe <johnku...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 18:47:53 -0800 (PST)
Local: Wed, Nov 4 2009 9:47 pm
Subject: Re: RBP roll call
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Wow! What an illustrious list of participants!!

--riverman; began the poll
Watersprite
Wilko
John Kuthe
Galen Hekhuis
Rich
jaybird
Frank Galikanokus
Steve Cramer
chuck
Bill Bradshaw
Grip
Cricket
VK1NF
Sylvain Fauvel
Charlie Chok
Railtramp
qrk
Dymphna
Walt
Benson Gray
Tom McCloud
ab257
 

See! RBP is not dead, it was just hiding from Sponson Boy! :-)
 

John Kuthe...

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.boats.paddle/browse_thread/thread/79400d623353d135/743696d4e695f04a
 

TimIngram    View profile
  More options Oct 22, 7:30 am

Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: TimIngram <timing...@isp.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 05:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Thurs, Oct 22 2009 7:30 am
Subject: Re: Dead American Children Without Sponsons
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On Oct 21, 11:51 am, Steve Cramer <cramer...@charter.net> wrote:
 

> John Kuthe wrote:
> > On Oct 20, 2:45 am, Wilko <look...@my.sig> wrote:
> >> John Kuthe wrote:
> >>> Sick Puppy/Sponson Boy/Tim Ingram floods this group with his inane
> >>> copy./pasted sick puppy puke provoked or UNprovoked. It does not
> >>> matter if anyone responds to him, or as you put it baits him.
> >>> Just watch! He's like an autoBOT! I commented on at least one post he
> >>> made for no reason determinable, other than to vent his sick puppy
> >>> need for attention (I guess)!
> >> I believe that you're wrong, John. He does respond a *lot* more if
> >> someone is foolish enough to respond directly to him. That much should
> >> have been clear from the last couple of days...

> > Yes, he responds to stimulus. A lot! But he does occasionally post
> > with no impetus whatsoever. In nurse-speak, I call that "responds to
> > internal stimulus".
 

> Speaking of people needing attention......
 

> Steve- Hide quoted text -
 

> - Show quoted text -
 
 

Dead American Children and American Citizens Without Knowledge of
Sponsons. Scott Bristow Died at The Great Falls of The Potomac.
Sponsons could not have saved him, seeking the deadly adrenaline rush.
He suffered the ultimate fate of the rec.boats paddle cult. But most
canoes and kayaks do not kill this way: They have no means to enable
victims to get out of the water, without sponsons.   The Darlington
School Boys were not looking for a rush, they were deliberately left
to die in the water; although any 2 ten year old girls can get out of
the water in 5 seconds with 50 cent sponsons,  and save any other
victims in the water, without practice or expensive instruction, on
http://www.sponsonguy.com

This cult enjoys these deaths, in common with serial and other
murderers. You will notice that they are incapable of rationally
debating the facts, or constructing an intelligent sentence. Murderers
as a group have a lower I.Q. than the normal population.
Rec.Boats.Paddle cannot debate these sponsons facts. But here is a
rationallization for Scott Bristow's death, nonsensical, but worthy of
scientific study:
 

Date: 1998/11/29
Subject: Re: Scott Bristow Re: Death at Great Falls of the Potomac
Today
 
 

Mothra wrote:
>Scott was like a beautiful shooting star that grazed across our
>rec.boats.paddle universe burning brightly for a time and then disappearing
>from view. I am glad to have been graced by his brightness and light, even
>if it burned way too shortly.
 

Amen to that.
What a sad thing, what a tragedy.
I missed Scott by a week at the Tallulah and by a week at the Gauley.
I figured
I'd get to meet him in person someday, somewhere in the Eastern US.
I'm very
sad that it won't happen.
There've been a lot of Class-V deaths in the last couple of years. It
doesn't
seem that the trend is abating one bit. Too many, too young.
Deepest condolences to his family and to David, Joe, and Julie. The
grief
expressed all over RBP today must be small compared to the grief
you're
feeling.
Let's all remember Scott's brightness and good humor.
Riviera Ratt

Of course it was not a rational thought to go over the Great Falls. It
was encouraged by the cult, hoping for some reflected glory if
successful, creating a dearly loved martyr to the cult if not.
(Consider today what is considered to be the reward for other martyrs,
almost everyday in our media. The martyr's reward is a powerful
motivation for suicide; for the "good" of the cult group; as for
thousands of years, even before Moses came down the mountain. )  There
is no shame expressed by the cult for the dead Darlington School boys
or the over 200 dead American children in canoes and kayaks without
sponsons. Normally lifesaving is respected by any society. This cult
is a very curious specimen indeed!
 

Here are the basic facts of Sponsons and the cult. The cult members,
as the famous Milgram psychology experiments proved, do not believe
they are doing wrong. They believe that they are normal (following the
norm), as Dr. Milgram noticed among the Nazis at Nuremberg. This is
true of any group committing mass murder toward any other group; and
encouraging deadly, suicidal behavior among themselves, harming even
American children in canoes and kayaks:
 

American Lives are normally valued, American school children are
normally protected from painful and violent deaths. However, according
to the U.S. Coast Guard Boating Accident Report Database, over 200
American children have been deliberately killed, murdered, in canoes
and kayaks; and well over 1,500 adult Americans similarly murdered, by
denying them any means to get out of the water. The U.S. Coast Guard
in fact produduced a $26,000 "study" at my request, (see the Federal
Register) ; a study that in fact was a "poll" of persons willing to
lie to murder fellow citizens.
 

U.S. Coast Guard personnel at the beginning of the "study" freely
admitted that they were affected by political lobbying in the past,
trying to bring some kind of sponson-like invention to easily prevent
most canoe and kayak deaths and comply with federal law, "The Level
Flotation Standard":
 

USCG Level Flotation Standard 33 CFR 183. Issued April 18, 1977;
Effective August 1, 1978 "Establishes level flotation standards on
rowboats and outboard boats less than 20 feet in length, the boats
most often involved in swamping and capsizing accidents, so that the
boat will float level when swamped and provide a safe platform until
rescue."
 

Currently canoes and kayaks enjoy a safety exemption from this law, to
murder Americans. The Coast Guard personnel otherwise would have lost
their jobs to these lobby groups in the Bush Cheney administration. At
least both of my U.S. Sponson patents were shown, if not explained in
this USCG "study/poll". Sponsons are the only means to stabilize
canoes and kayaks in emergencies to get out of the water in 5 seconds,
as shown on  http://www.sponsonguy.com
 

Other details are available at  http://www.canoekayaksafety.com  or in
my old book "Canoe and Kayak Scam Kills 1000 Americans". (Available on
Amazon.com and elsewhere.) The ACA letter to the Attorney General of
Florida is there.
 

The US Coast Guard report 071-01 reveals: "Canoes and kayaks have by
far the highest fatality rates per million hours of exposure (.42) as
any other boat type".
 

"A total of 105 canoeists and kayakers drowned in 1998. Canoes and
kayaks have the highest fatality rate of all boat types ñ double the
rate of personal watercraft and 4 times higher than open
motorboats." (Before the Subcommittee on Coast Guard and Maritime
Transportation of the U.S. House of Representatives, May 15, 2001,
BOAT/U.S.)
 

Canoes and Kayaks are a very tiny but very deadly industry. National
Marine Manufacturers Association: "Canoes and kayaks are almost 15 %
of all US Boating Fatalites, but only 3.5 % of all boating
participants. (Actually much less than 3.5 % since this figure
includes inflatables, dinghies, rowboats, etc.)"
 

All police and other rescue personnel can see this. A few "expert"
kayakers and canoeists do contend that they can always "roll up"; (but
they are contradicted by the majority of authors who recommend re-
enter rolls, since rolls fail so often, as evidenced by the Greenland
Championships, Sea Kayaker, Feb. 2001, p.41.) Or they try to perform
similar, difficult techniques; and insist that the general public
should too. Some deliberately lie, to say that narrower kayaks are
more stable than kayaks with Sponsons; although only wide kayaks and
canoes with sponsons or equivalent beam stability, have crossed both
Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. This is an apparent attempt to make
kayaks as unstable as possible to sell fraudulent instruction.
 

The murderous American Canoe Association "bait and switch" fraud
technique is shown in the minutes of the USCG National Boating Safety
Advisory Council, Sheraton Inner Harbor Hotel Baltimore, Maryland, 22
- 23 April 2002. The ACA (Mr. Yeager), says Sponsons are for
whitewater use. This is a contradiction of the ACA letter to the
Attorney General of Florida the previous year, that clearly states any
kind of Sponson is a non-whitewater device!
 

The monetary value of deadly instruction is many times the profit of
one canoe or kayak sale.
 

Many honest authors, magazines and instructors proclaimed the
lifesaving value of sponsons immediately, but later were threatened
with economic boycott by the cult. This is similar to Coal Companies
poisoning thousands of Americans in Kentucky, Tennessee and West
Virginia: destroying mountain tops, water supplies and towns.
 

See some of the good guys:
" In this book I would like to emphasize rescue techniques other than
the Eskimo roll because a backup technique is mandatory...given that
relatively few sea kayakers will ever roll successfully and because
workable alternative techniques are too often neglected...The great
advantage of the Sea Wing (sponsons) is that it leaves the paddler in
a more stable position than before the capsize." (John Dowd, Sea
Kayaking, 3rd edition, 1997, pp.90-95)
 

"The Paddlefloat is not really a rough water rescue. During trials I
found the SEA WING (sponsons) ... very comforting. I paddled out to
sea in rough, windy conditions...I was able to sit on my rear deck-
not something I would normally do at sea...The rescue potential is
obvious." (Derek Hutchinson, The Complete Book of Sea Kayaking, 1995,
pp. 104-111)
 

"basic, no nonsense...dramatically increase...safety
and...capabilities... It should be noted that within the North
American civilian sea kayak industry there is some controversy...Sea
Wings' direct competition with...the paddle float...the merits of Sea
Wings...far outweigh those of the paddlefloat...During the IMKP 1994
we used Sea Wings with all our rescue boats as back-up flotation/
stability for awashed kayaks needing assistance pumping out in heavy
seas. In addition, IMKP's rescue kayak was fitted with Sea Wings on a
permanent basis which allowed us to be far more stable in possible
rescue operations...Sea Wings dramatically increase re-entry
operations with capsized boats. Indeed, even with heavily loaded boats
(those approaching 1000 lbs.) most paddlers can easily re-enter the
kayak. However the most notable advantage of Sea Wings is with lightly
loaded boats; ie, those kayaks which are far less stable (more tippy)
than fully loaded boats. Recovery operations are far more difficult in
these boats and most students have extreme difficulty in mastering the
necessary techniques. This is compounded in heavy seas. Sea Wings
offers an almost guaranteed method of re-entering a lightly loaded
kayak even in heavy seas. Stability increase in heavy seas. Paddling
in extremely heavy seas is difficult. Sea Wings offer the crews an
additional method of dealing with such sea states. One of the most
dangerous situations a detachment can find itself in is that of towing
a disabled crew with full operational loads in heavy seas at night.
The employment of Sea Wings dramatically increases the safety margin.
In my opinion, this is one of the sponsons' most important
contributions to MAROPS... As an historical footnote it should be
noted that circumpolar kayakers (Greenlanders and Inuit) employed a
similar sponson/ float for stability. It differed significantly though
from Sea Wings in that it was free floating; i.e., there was
apparently no harness system and stability came from pushing down on
the float on the side of the kayak. In addition, during the late 70's
and early 80's we employed a similar system with our commo boats.
Waterproof bags were blown up and hand held to the sides of the kayak
while communication was conducted. The point here is that the idea of
some sort of support on the sides of the kayak for stability is very
old and universal." Invitational Military Kayak Paddle 1994 Evaluation
(10th Airborne, Fort Devens, MA)
 

Kayaks cannot even be pumped out (selling useless bilge pumps and
paddlefloats!) let alone swamped canoes: Without sponsons, logically,
there can be no kayak or canoe safety:
The American Canoe Association and others have killed hundreds of
kayakers using sprayskirts, knowing that kayaks are impossible to pump
out through a sprayskirt, even in small waves. You need hands for the
paddle, pump and sprayskirt, but you still can't seal the sprayskirt,
so water comes back in.
 

This has been openly acknowledged: "...It has two fairly serious
shortcomings: You can't seal the sprayskirt, and you can't keep both
hands on the paddle while pumping." (Sea Kayaker Magazine, February
2003, p.29)
 

"The most effective way of using a handheld bilge pump in rough seas
is to lift the bottom of your PFD up and shove the pump down between
the spray skirt and your belly. This way is slow and awkward, but you
can pump with the spray skirt completely sealed. Practice it." (p.27,
Sea Kayaker Magazine, June 2006.)
 

Matt Broze, "Pumping Out after Paddle Float Rescue", Paddlewise, Wed,
20 Jun 2001 02:36:43 -0700: "...obviously there are
going to be certain combinations of clothing and spraydecks that
don't allow a pump down the front. Please try it and report back (if
you don't knock yourself out and drown after hitting your chin)." The
idea to shove the pump down the top of the sprayskirt requires
unfastening the PFD, since the tops of sprayskirts normally extend
some distance underneath the PFD. " Paddlefloats alone have murdered
hundreds of victims.
 

Here is the plan, from the American Canoe Association (a tiny group of
criminals), to make money from as many dead Americans as possible:
 

"All national paddlesports organizations combined comprise just one
percent of committed users and a tenth-percent of the total user
group...To represent paddlers to regulatory agencies with legitimacy,
an organization should represent at least 10 percent of the sport's
committed users...The ACA is the paddlesport organization best
placed ...to protect paddlers from paddlecraft registration, required
education and mandated PFD use... protecting our sport from needless
government regulation." (Paddler, Sept./Oct., 2003, p.84)
 

Some rec.boats.paddle posters actually have encouraged friends and
relatives to paddle down rivers into extreme danger. (Sponsons are NOT
a safety device to permit whitewater death scams; although all
sponsoned canoes and kayaks derive emergency stability and safety from
sponsons.) Normally whitewater deaths are not due to not being unable
to get out of the water; the shore is usually nearby. Deliberate
paddling down rivers into strainers and over waterfalls, as
recommended by the ACA and some Rec.Boats.Paddle posters, will
certainly kill. After all this is a cult.
 

Stay tuned.
 

Tim

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.boats.paddle/msg/06ed4cf056ea6b1c?
 
 

It may surprise the reader to discover that kayaks have no means to remove water! as documented in Sea Kayaker Magazine and Paddlewise, years ago.

Here is a diplomatic attempt to sell a no-hands (electric) bilge pump that suggests a handheld bilge pump may still be useful to save a lives; although the "safety" of  relying on bilge pumps that cannot work in waves or any other circumstance of instability is plainly deadly and unsafe! This sort of egregious, but rather obvious, misleading "safety" is the common standard for the totally unregulated and uncontrolled canoe and kayak industry. Profitable instruction leading to certain death in the water is the consequence of total lack of government or legal safeguards for the public, with respect to canoes and kayaks. The nature of this fraud and deceit is obvious in the following description of the consequences of no means to empty water from a kayak:

"The first, and by far the most dangerous situation (a cockpit full of water) occurs during a capsize whenever the paddler "misses" his eskimo roll (assuming he can do one) and is forced to wet-exit. Obviously, the cockpit fills with a tremendous amount of water, and because water likes to slosh around, this renders the kayak extremely unstable until the water is pumped out. Normally, a paddler would carry a simple, hand-operated bilge pump for these situations. And I do. The problem is that, for a skilled paddler like myself, the only conditions likely to capsize me (and to foil my very reliable rolling skills) are conditions far too rough to make using a hand-operated pump practical. The hand-operated pumps require the paddler to take one or both hands off of the paddle, which means you end up trying to pump water with little or no ability to brace yourself against the same waves that tipped you in the first place. Under these circumstances, the odds are that you'll just keep on tipping..."

http://www.roguepaddler.com/battpak.htm

Typical email-based public insight, aware that sponsons work, unaware of how the world works, in America or anywhere else, to make money:

Hi Gary:

There is more money in teaching a plethora of "rescues" that can't work. Can't you roll or paddle a flooded canoe? What is wrong with you. No canoe over canoe? No pump out after paddlefloat, documented in Sea Kayaker for nearly 20 years. See, it is just like American Health Care, money money death death. (The People are stupid.)

Tim

P.S. Of course, if you try to pump out, then you have no paddle to brace with (no hands available to hold paddle) and stabilize yourself; therefore you capsize. Without sponsons flooded canoes and kayaks have no means to stabilize to avoid capsize. If you can't get out of the water and stay out of the water you die, sooner or later, as proven by thousands of deaths. How do you argue with that? Simple is it not?

- Hide quoted text -
On 11/6/09, GARY FIEDLER <northgary--@q.com> wrote:
Are these C02 sponsons available for purchase?
I don't see anything similar on the web?
Your web site has a lot of rambling about resistance to this product, why aren't they on the market?


Notice the Pathology here. Written almost immediately after my last post about the Scott Bristow "Suicide Going over the Great Falls of the Potomac" to the full approval of the cult. See the Wilko post below: Deliberate Risk-taking "venting off some steam", Resulting in Permanent Damage-And the RBP cult does not question this typically irrational and dangerous behavior! You do not want these people near any children, in view of the risks to the children.

Wilko    View profile
  More options Oct 30, 4:09 am

Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: Wilko <look...@my.sig>
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 10:09:03 +0100
Local: Fri, Oct 30 2009 4:09 am
Subject: Re: And now that the Witch is dead, so is RBP it seems!
Reply | Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
 

- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Bit Farmer wrote:
> Wilko wrote:
>> John Kuthe wrote:
>>> C'mon folks! RBP is what we make of it!

>>> I've taken a hiatus from paddling while I'm (still) going to nursing
>>> school, what's everyone else up to?
 

>> I spent the last three years at university, recently got another piece
>> of paper adding a Msc to my name. Now it's job-hunting again.
>> I'm still paddling, but because the school holidays messed up my
>> paddling schedule for the past couple of years, paddling 70+ days a
>> year is over. Also, I had a pretty bad paddling accident last year,
>> landing on a rock after going down a dam (basically an artificial
>> waterfall in the Czech Republic that we ran a lot, where they put big
>> boulders below the drop against erosion) which has made me a tad less
>> eager to run harder stuff nowadays.
 

> Reminds me of the old saying:
> Good judgment comes from experience.
> Experience comes from bad judgment.
 

> One of the great benefits to youth is the perception of immortality. The
> older we get, the more cautious we become because deep down you know
> that there is a very fine line between those who walk away from an
> accident and those who don't - and is is not always skill that separates
> the two.
 

> The best thing that ever happened to me was getting married and raising
> a family.  There were some activities I simply gave up because the risks
> outweighed the potential enjoyment.  There is a level of risk I can live
> with.  The rest I will leave to my imagination.
 
 

Well Blakely, you said it better than I can.

That's indeed the impression I am also getting. For me, it was not so
much about taking increasing risks any more, but about becoming more
aware of the scale of the risk I was taking. It's why I stopped running
increasingly more difficult stuff after Scott died, and why I
concentrated more on playing and running stuff with a buddy in a
Topo-Duo. Still, over the years I found that I started running more
things in my playboat that a creeker would be more suitable for. This
was one of those.
 

Everything looked exactly as it had the dozens of times we had run it
before, so no-one bothered to check the bottom of the drop. My buddy
went down the drop upside-down, barely missing the boulder with his head
(without knowing it), but the hit broke his boat. Then he signalled that
everything was okay, so I ran it as well, deliberately trying to keep my
boat vertical (because it was well over 10ft deep there... in the past)
to prevent his "landing". I hit the boulder full on, folding my boat at
the ankles and taking the force in all my joints and back. That was an
increasingly painful trip back to the cars (several miles downstream),
and then for several hours driving back to Prague. I was checked by
sveral doctors and surprised that I lost a little over 1/2 an inch in
height... Oh well. Less bumping my head into low doorframes. ;-)
 

I try to learn from other people's experiences where I can, but that's
not always an option. In this instance, the sport lost some of its magic
 

We're also talking about kids, and I'm curious to see what that will do
to my perception of the world. Time will tell. :-)
 

--
Wilko van den Bergh                          wilko<a t)dse(d o t>nl
     Eindhoven         The Netherlands            Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/
 
 
 

Wilko    View profile
  More options Oct 30, 8:27 pm

Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: Wilko <look...@my.sig>
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 02:27:18 +0100
Local: Fri, Oct 30 2009 8:27 pm
Subject: Re: And now that the Witch is dead, so is RBP it seems!
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watersprite wrote:
> Hello Wilko, you wrote:

>> I was checked by sveral doctors and surprised that I lost a little
>> over 1/2 an inch in height... Oh well. Less bumping my head into
>> low doorframes. ;-)
 

> I'm sure you're happy that you weren't even more seriously injured--or
> worse--but that still doesn't sound like much fun.  Aside from the
> height adjustment, I hope you've recovered well!
 
 

Yeah, it took about half a year for me to be able to run again. Looks
like there will be some permanent damage, but there isn't much I can do
about that.
 

>> I try to learn from other people's experiences where I can, but
>> that's not always an option. In this instance, the sport lost some
>> of its magic

>> We're also talking about kids, and I'm curious to see what that will
>> do to my perception of the world. Time will tell. :-)
 

> Uh oh...soon enough we'll be reading Wilko-Sized-Trip-Reports about
> open canoeing on calm rivers and--gawd forbid--sea kayaking on
> "flat/open" water! ;)
 
 

Actually, I still run class V stuff every now and then, but indeed I was
also trying to find less dangerous ways of venting off some steam...

<whispers> I even started playing paintball! :-)
 

--
Wilko van den Bergh                          wilko<a t)dse(d o t>nl
     Eindhoven         The Netherlands            Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/
 
 

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